Toktok:Fran pes

Long Wikipedia
Go stret long: ol bikpela pes, painim

Senis yumipela i mas mekim long Fran Pes[edit source]

Comment blong pisa blong dispela wik em i "Wanpela long Vanuatu i-mekim pia", tasol atin dispela i kranki. "Wanpela man long Vanuatu i mekim paia" i gutpela moa.

Nupela toktok[edit source]

Halo. Nau Tok Pisin Wikipedia i gat 1,352 pes. Plis kamapim nupela pes.

  • Sapos yu save grama bilong Tok Pisin plis halivim raitim buk i skulim Tok Pisin, long Wikibooks.
  • Plis tu, raitim nupela tok long Wiktionary

Olpela toktok[edit source]

Taim mi statim dispela Wikipedia mi laik mekim Wikipedia long Tok Pisin wantaim Tok Inglis, tasol narapela man o meri ol i tok dispela i nogut. Em nau, mi abrusim dispela pasin. Nau mi raitim nupela pes long tok Pisin tasol.
--Milaiklainim 14:22, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Toktok i bin stat olsem:

  • Bilong wanem i mas raitim ol pes lg TP na Tok Inglis tupela wantaim ? (Why have both Tok Pisin and English on the pages?)

They are some (many ?) people in the world with an interest in Tok Pisin. By comparing it with English, they will get a fast grasp of the language. Also it will make easier for the better speakers to correct the parts written by semi-speakers or beginners.

I do not think this is a good idea. Do you do it on Bislama?

By using English alongside Tok Pisin, you are calling into question the status of Pisin as a separate language. As with all Wikipedias, beginners in a language are welcomed and invited to edit. But with one single exception (that being simple english), NO Wikipedias are meant to be tools for learning a language by reading it alongside English. If people want to learn Pisin, they should buy a textbook, or go to wikibooks, or find a website that teaches it. If they still want to use Wikipedia to learn Pisin, they can do this WITHOUT English text.

Got that.

Note that it can be a good idea for all less-active Wikipedias : by presenting their less-widely-used language next to English or to another reference langage, they could be more easily promoted : not as encyclopedias (which they are in fact not until a large number of quality articles are edited) but as language resources for students and teachers.

This is not the purpose of Wikipedia. The purpose of Wikipedia is to offer a free, online encyclopedia to people who can already speak a language. If a Wikipedia doesn't yet have many articles, it nonetheless is meant to serve this same purpose. People will eventually come and build it up. IT IS NOT, however, meant to be a "language resource" for students and teachers. It can be used that way and it will be welcomed, yes, but we should make NO ACCOMMODATIONS for learners of a language. If you really want, you can start a new Wikipedia for learners of Tok Pisin, like we have Simple for learners of English.
Got that.
  • Tasol TP bl yu i nogut tru ! (But your Tok Pisin is terrible !)

Of course ! I am a complete beginner ! But that's all the fun of it. Please do not hesitate to correct all texts as you wish. And if you are a native speaker of English... please correct my English too !

  • Kamapim nupela tok i gut, or nogat ? (Is it OK to invent words ?)

Well, let us try not to; but I guess it is impossible to prevent it completely, especially if we beginners are trying to use the language. So maybe we could just try not inventing words; skilled speakers may also replace new words by more appropriate one as they correct TP sentences. === External link === The problem of standardization of TP:

  • Bilong wanem yu raitim lg, bl lg halivim long, bilong? (Why write lg, bl instead of long, bilong ?) ==

Because those are the two most common words in TP and they are quite long to type.

So I suggest you always write them in full because to do otherwise is an abomination unto the language.
  • Encyclopedia, not a textbook

Hi, I don't know if anyone is still working on this Wikipedia but I'm a bit worried about how much it looks like a textbook rather than an encyclopedia. Pages like wik would probably be better as part of the Wikibooks language bookshelf. I agree with the comments made by the anonymous user above that this site should not be a language learning tool. I don't see the English sections as particularly appropriate, although I know other languages like Nahuatl have tried adding English text, but it seems to be less dominant and more temporary there than it is here (see nah:Atl for example). I don't think the split page template which always includes the English text should be encouraged. Angela 21:33, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

Got that.
  • Plis, mipela laikim tanim "Fundraising Drive notice" igo long tok Pisin.

Wikpedias are learning tools, like it or not[edit source]

I can't disagree more with those above who disparage the use of Wikipedias as learning tools.  Having an open, editable encyclopedia was Jim Wales intent when he developed his Wiki system.

Those who dislike the idea of English being intermixed with Tok Pisin are not aware that in practice English is increasingly being intermixed with Tok Pisin as a matter of course in everyday use, both orally and in printed materials.  Code swapping English words and phrases and code substitution with Tok Pisin words and phrases intermixed with English is a commonplace.

If you know even a little bit about the language mix in Melanesia, you would know that there is no such thing as a "pure" Tok Pisin.  The tok pisin spoken in rural and remote regions, for example, is different than the tok pisin spoken (and written) in the urban/urbanized areas of PNG.  Even the orthography (word spellings) isn't fully standardized.

Those who would prefer to keep the TPI Wikipedia "pure" and unadulterated with English are simply out of the loop linguistically as well as practically.  Firstly, English is the national language of Papua New Guinea, like it or not.  It is the standard language taught in schools and used in government, legal documents, and general circulation newspapers, periodicals, and books.

The purists are also out of the loop realistically.  Wikipedias are browser-based documents that are entirely dependent on a user having access to (1) a computer, and (2) connection to the Internet.  The only reason for having a "pure" Tok Pisin Wikipedia is for preservation of a regional lingua franca that is rarely (if ever) used in general circulation publications.  Fr. Mahalic's Wontak was a well-meant attempt to preserve and perpetuate the language, but when a fire destroyed the publisher's office, it destroyed the only general circulation Tok Pisin newspaper, and no attempts have been subsequently been made to either restart it again, or to create a new and similar publication.  Using tok pisin in schools is definitely not encouraged.

Face it.  A bilingual Wikipedia is indeed a learning tool, and a valuable one at that.  International businesses and aid organizations (like Caritas, for one) send many of their expatriates to locations in PNG where knowing tok pisin is necessary, if not essential.  A bi-lingual TPI Wikipedia with exact English translations (or as close as possible) of tok pisin articles with a focus on the people, places and things in PNG and the surrounding regions will be an excellent learning tool, as will be an accompanying multilingual TPI Wiktionary.

An exclusively tok pisin TPI Wikipedia will certainly join the same club that includes the Hawaiian, Samoan, Tahitian, Maori, and Chamorro Wikipedias, all of which are only shell Wikipedias with 90% (or more) of their editorial content consisiting of nothing more than 'wishful thinking' one-line stub "please contribute" notification boxes.  Take a look at the content of this Wikipedia if you doubt me.  Simply click on "Special pages" in the home page sidebar, click on "All pages" in the list, and you can see for yourself how many tok pisin articles have been written since this Wikipedia was created two years ago.

K. Kellogg-Smith 15:07, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I would agree that English is a stronger language than Pidgin, but you should also know that a great majority of schools that attempted to use English have failed miserably, because they are learning English third or fourth hand, and the grammar has degraded. Tok Pisin is a very viable language, and there are newspapers being circulated in Pidgin (Wantok is still being produced, sold, and read). But this was an old comment... Brian 4:15, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The comment above is, unfortunately, rather meaningless.  It would be more interesting as well as much more informative if the writer had provided some documented examples of such schools, ie., what type of schools are being referred to, what's being taught, and at what age level.  What I've found over the last couple of years is that few literary works are or have been written in Tok Pisin by PNG/Melanesian authors.  Published PNG authors, obviously educated and literate, write in English.   The same goes for Melanesian Internet websites. They are also written in English. Same goes for PNG-related blogs and forums. They're all in English. Where Tok Pisin is used in forums, in almost all cases you'll find it to be TPI-slang or English-Tok Pisin mix.  Simply put, if you want a working Tok Pisin Wikipedia, one that's literate and useful to a wide range of folks who have an interest in PNG and Melanesia in general, it will clearly have to be a bilingual Wikipedia, in English and Tok Pisin.  Otherwise you end up with what you have here, a document that's like old, unread newspapers blowing in the wind.K. Kellogg-Smith 22:00, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
All wikipedias are multilingual, that's why we link to other language versions of the same article on the left. The idea of maintaining a seperate article in another language has already been put in practice and is a functional part of the wiki. The tpi wikipedia is purely for publishing articles in Tok Pisin. Believe it or not, it is a first language for a lot of people, and a lot of people that speak Tok Pisin don't also speak English. There has been plenty of material published in Tok Pisin. It is also the standard language for law and government in PNG. Aliasd

Mun[edit source]

Mi kamapim Template:Mun long Mun bilong yia. Plis yusim em long pes bilong mun.
(I've made Template:Mun for months. Please use is on pages of months.) --WurdBendur 20:00, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Tankyu long halivim. Plis kamapim planti nupela pes, na planti nupela template.
よろしくお願いいたします。--Milaiklainim 14:39, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ido links on the main page[edit source]

Hi, this is mithridates from the Ido Wikipedia. Someone just came to our Wikipedia to complain about an Ido link being put on the front page. I just checked to see who put the Ido link on and it seems to be someone in Spain. I'm in Korea and the other two sysops are in Canada and Finland so it wasn't one of us. I did notice that this main page has a lot of problem with spam though - I suggest that one of the sysops here protect the main page and write the whole thing within a template like they do on the Danish Wikipedia. Actually I'll just do it for you myself to show what I mean (I can't protect the page though, someone else will have to do that). Mithridates 23:18, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

There. Now if you protect this you will be safe from spam robots but anybody will still be able to modify the front page just by going into the template.

Protected[edit source]

I have just protected this page. It has had too much vandalism of late. If anyone wants to edit it, please contact me at Danny Danny 15:58, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Husat I Bosim dispela peles ?[edit source]

Husat i bosim dispela wiki pes, mi bin stap na wok long PNG foa klostu wunpelaten tu yias, na mi save liklik Tok Pisin.

Nau mi stap long Aust na wok long kisim Uni degree. Mi laik helipim yupela wokim dispela ples bilong ol. Bai mi hammamas tru long harim Tok Pisin gen.

Destructive edit reverted[edit source]

WHAT HAVE HAPPEN WITH THE 'FRAN PES'?????? --Jeneme 15:15, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

  • I've now reverted the damage and advised Yusakopa that this kind of editing behaviour is unacceptable. If this continues the user will eventually be blocked. A better outcome would be that the user contributes in a more useful and collaborative way. At present we have no active administrators but no doubt we will again soon - see Wikipedia:Requests for adminship. Wantok (toktok) 01:06, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Standardization of grammar, spelling, pronunciation, etc.[edit source]

I would refer the people who have been discussing Pidgin here to Mihalic's Jacaranda, which is cited as a source for Tok Pisin pages. In both the introduction to the First Edition, as well as the Preface and the following sections on grammar and spelling, Mihalic clearly points out that there is a standardization of Tok Pisin. Although the work is not completed or universally accepted, it is agreed that these standards are Melanesian in origin, and not influenced by Australian or other expatriate interests. For spelling, one should refer to either the Buk Baibel, or to approved rules set out in Jacaranda. Also, the widely accepted standard for pronunciation is that of the Madang province speakers, especially the "rather older Melanesian speaker" of this province (pg. 4). A few paragraphs down, Mihalic again says "Madang was chosen for its central position geographically in the Melanesian Pidgin area, and because it represented a Melanesian Pidgin as unaffected as possible by the introduction of English."

Because of these decisions, made by the Department of Education and the Minister of the Territories (both of Australia), and accepted later on by the independent government, anglicisations such as "emi" are unacceptable in Tok Pisin. In this instance, the predicate marker "i" has a separate function and is a complete linguistic morpheme, and should not be joined with the third person singular pronoun. (I see this error on the "Fran Pes".)

I also have some doubts as to the common practice of merely spelling and pronouncing English words in Tok Pisin (e.g., "Maltilinguwol kudinesen" for multilingual coordination, taken from "Fran Pes"), or the continued abuse of the predicate marker "i" being used as a prefix -- istap, igat -- or a suffix -- emi. However the former may be up for debate, while the latter is inexcusably an insult to the language.

Harim, mi save pinis Tok Pisin, na tu mi inap tokim yu stret. Yu lukim, mi tokim yu pinis long Inglis (English), olsem na yu bai save wanem samting mi toktok. Mi no laik givim planti taim long raunim tingting long Tok Pisin, bilong wanem, yu save Inglis. Mi tok olsem, tasol mi gat bel long Pisin, olsem em i namba tu tok bilong mi. Na tu, sapos mi givim tok long wanpela hap (pes) long TPI Wikipedia, mi bai wokim long Pisin. Tasol, long kisim save long Tok Pisin, o toktok long em (about), Inglis, o narapela tokples, em isi moa.

Small request[edit source]

Hello! I am a Polish wikipedian and I would like to ask you for your help - writing a new article about former Polish President who won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1983 – Lech Wałęsa. I have looked for his biography in your Wikipedia but without success. Polish Wikipedians will be grateful for your help. Thank you so much in advance! PS you can find the English version of the article here. Best wishes from Poland, Patrol110 09:51, 13 November 2009 (UTC)